Hydro pulling power
wildbill
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 36 Brandon, MS |
2003-12-16 71410
My quest to find out everything I can about the capabilites of eHydro vs gear tractors; some folks have complained about lack of power experienced with hydro pulling a steep incline. My question is; can a JD 4310/4410 pull a relatively steep hill with a full load in the bucket and ballast weight on the tractor. I assume a gear transmission in low gear would have no problem.
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2003-12-16 71411
In my experience with the eHydro you should have no problem, especially if you have LoadMatch turned on. I've driven up steep hills with a 600 lb. grapple carrying hundreds of pounds of slash, over 1000 lbs of loaded tires, and a heavy rotary cutter and never even had the thought that there was an issue. Will your JD dealer let you test drive it under similar circumstances? That would be best if you can work it out. I think the only one who has complained about it is Art who has admitted to not being familiar with the tractor. I don't think I've ever heard of an owner complaining about this. ....
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Hydro pulling power
wildbill
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 36 Brandon, MS |
2003-12-16 71412
That's good to here. Most dealers that I have been to do not have the terrain that would be comparable to mine however I have test driven one without load and on flat ground and I like it. As a side note what ahout the occasional need to pull a single shank subsoiler in clay- loam soil? ....
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Hydro pulling power
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee Pics |
2003-12-16 71413
If you are referring to the 4310 tractor that Art posted his experience with; that tractor was not functioning properly. A properly functioning ehydro will pull until you break traction with the tires. Barring a loss of traction the ehydro will pull several times its own weight. I have personally hooked up 4710's to CH-47 helicopters parked on the flight line and towed them by pulling and pushing them. These aircraft weighed anywhere from 28,000 to 50,000 pounds. The 4710's moved these aircraft effortlessly. I have pulled heavy logs with my 4410 and either got traction and moved them or just dug in but never ran out of pulling power. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee Pics |
2003-12-16 71414
Bill, You will run out of traction LONG before you ever run out of pulling power. The ehydro actually allows you to very gradually pull up against a heavy load without having the slip clutch or lug the engine down when you have LoadMatch engaged. ....
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Hydro pulling power
wildbill
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 36 Brandon, MS |
2003-12-16 71415
Thanks to all for your inputs. Its looking more and more like the eHydro is what I want. ....
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2003-12-16 71416
Sorry, I can't answer the question about the sub-soiler since I don't do much in the way of ground-engagement other than box scraping from time to time. I'm generally quite impressed with the pulling ability of my 4310 though. If a gear machine can do it I'm sure the eHydro wouldn't have a problem.
Chief, I don't think Art ever answered the question of whether LoadMatch was used in his test. Without a dealer there to point it out I doubt it was. ....
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2003-12-16 71417
Bill, sometimes a dealer will deliver a tractor to your place to allow you to try it out. Have you asked? Of course if you're a long away from the dealer that may not work. ....
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Hydro pulling power
wildbill
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 36 Brandon, MS |
2003-12-16 71418
No, I have not asked but I plan on it. One problem is that the nearest dealer is about 25 miles away. If I get several positive responses back from owners or people who have 'real world' experiences, that should be sufficient proof. ....
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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee Pics |
2003-12-16 71419
On the John Deere web site you can sign up for a demo. I am not sure if the demo is at the dealer or at your home though. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2003-12-16 71424
Ken, there was no load at all on the steepest part. It was a dare at best to see if anyone could. The ground was wet, loaders were low and driving up hill in middle range four wheel drive. ....
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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2003-12-16 71426
Art, there are a couple of issues with that comparison. For one, the assumption that mid-range is "geared" the same on all tractors is invalid. Also, do you know if LoadMatch was enabled? ....
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Hydro pulling power
DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada Pics |
2003-12-17 71444
We have had several posts over the years where folks complain about their HST's stalling when trying to push the loader into the pile or losing rpm's when climbing a hill with a load.
Invariably, it comes down to: 'What gear are you using?' and the answer is always a high or medium gear. When they go back out and try it in low they are usually amazed at the power of their tractor and disappointed at how slow it is in the proper gear.
An HST will do anything a similar Gear tractor will do and it will do it with less wheel spin. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada Pics |
2003-12-17 71445
The easy answer is to just look at the spec. sheets, they will give a speed range for each of the 3 ranges available, if the speeds are similar and rpm's are too them gearing can't be far off.
Besides, I can't imagine any manufacturer having their gear ratio much if any different than the others, all CUT's are designed to do basically the same job at the same speed.
'Colour Bias' aside, I have heard back from my staff that our new Orange units are plowing circles around the Municipally-owned Green units they work side-by-side with, so much so that Town staff (read union rep.'s) are giving grief to those on the purchasing committee for buying inferior units.
We can consistantly plow about 1.5 miles more per hour than the other units can, that doesn't sound like much but when you figure the entire fleet into the equation it means an extra 30 miles of sidewalk cleared every hour.
Best of luck. ....
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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada Pics |
2003-12-17 71447
Murf, what makes the difference? HST ranges? Tires? ....
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Hydro pulling power
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee Pics |
2003-12-17 71449
If the difference in plowing performance is comparing Orange hydro equipped to Green gearshift equipped tractors; that would be a forgone conclusion. Not a fault of the tractor. It is the fault of the contracting officer who failed to spec. out the tractor with the correct options. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma Pics |
2003-12-17 71451
Can a hill be too steep, yes.
It's like the guy with a Kubota that stayed stuck for over a month, on the side of a hill in the Smokies. Seems the hill was steep enough the hydro wouldn't pick up the fluid and stopped altogether.
Murf, just curious. Are these Green Machines the same HP, tires and hydro tranny as the Orange? Now I know you're an Orange fan but give us the nitty gritty LOL ....
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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada Pics |
2003-12-17 71452
Contract spec.'s require HST & R4's.
I don't know if there is some limitations created by eHydro or something electronic, and HP, plow blades, etc., are all basically the same, we run L3830's they are running JD4410's since a large frame tractor can't be narrowed down to fit a sidewalk, it has to be a mid-sized frame unit.
....
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2003-12-17 71453
Murf, if the municipal drivers aren't motivated to plow as quickly as your staff, or aren't as skilled as your staff, then those results aren't surprising. That wouldn't be a fault of the tractor. After all, the government union employee could never be at fault. Private operators are always more efficient. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL Pics |
2003-12-17 71454
Wildbill;
If you think about it a hydros pulling ability it will pull as well or better than any gear tractor. For pulling power you need gearing. The hydro provides infinite gearing. The only problem is that as you hear the engine load you need to release the peddle rather than increase the pressure on the peddle. The opposite of the gas peddle.
Naturally this is counter to your response. It is trouble if you have 2 tractor that operate differently.
With my 955 JD same power as the 4310. I have moved my trailer with a full load of hay (~7000 lb) up the hill to the barn. I have pulled my stone mason from the mud with a full load of rock.
It will essentially give you all the power in the engine until you break the tires free.
The E-hydro option from what I can tell only provides this function electronically.
Peters ....
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Hydro pulling power
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada Pics |
2003-12-17 71459
Motivation doesn't seem to be a factor, in fact I think it's quite the opposite. Municipal (read union) employees like to brag that they have the best equipment that money can buy since they are not restricted by the profit motivations of private industry. Our employees counter that private industry has more money to spend on equipment and staff instead of funding waste and squabling between unions and supervisory and elected officials.
There are some serious bragging rights at stake, and more than one bar tab to cover, for the side that can't produce the biggest amount of cleared miles per hour, per storm.
The Brownies (a term we use to describe the municipal employees uniforms) don't like spending their union wages to buy our guys a round after work because they got skunked in the plow-a-thon. Especially after our guys started ordering imported stuff.....
Best of luck. ....
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2003-12-17 71461
Maybe, but I'm doubtful. With all due apologies in advance, the only thing non-LEA government union employees do quickly is break for lunch. It is predictable that the union rep would blame the equipment rather than his members for low productivity.
The only valid way to do a comparison is to take one skilled operator, make sure he's familiar with both machines, then send him out and see how he does.
In any case, this orange v. green snow plowing debate is far afield from the original topic of gear vs. hydro pulling power. I don't think most of us care about saving a couple of minutes on a 200 foot driveway. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada Pics |
2003-12-17 71464
A couple of the guys have done an informal 'switch-a-roo' by swapping machines for a test where we were plowing one side a street and they were doing the other.
It's definitely NOT 'loose nut behind the wheel' syndrome. There IS a difference, but as I mentioned, it maybe in the controls.
I (very respectfully of course) disagree that it would make a difference to the 'average Joe', if it meant you had to up-size with a particular colour to do the same job that eqiuates to difference in real costs to achieve the same effective work. The difference in cost to buy the next machine up might be a few bucks, the difference between affordability or not even.
Best of luck. ....
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2003-12-17 71467
Murf, you are running Kubota 3830s and the Gov't has JD 4410s. Since the 3830 has 10-12% more hp than the 4410 it's not surprising you guys are running a little faster. I missed that the first time I read your posts.
....
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2003-12-17 71468
Regarding the hydro "gearing" issue, I compared the L3130 to the JD 4310 and the JD seems to be geared taller. In midrange the Kubota top speed is 7.5 mph and the JD is 8.7 mph. That's a 16% difference which may help to explain the different hill climb performance Art reported. ....
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Hydro pulling power
AlbionKen
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 23 Albion, PA and Geneva, OH |
2003-12-17 71470
Wildbill, Just another data point, but during the summer I was switching back and forth between putting in an 850' gravel driveway and doing brushhogging with my 4610. I was too lazy to take the 6'cutter off (and figured it would be a good counterweight to the loader full of gravel) when doing the drive and I have two sections that are about 30 degree slopes. I never took the JD out of midrange and it never even drew a deep breath going up the slope. And as some of you will remember, it had plenty of power to bend the rear blade well out of straight. I have also used it to drag 30" diameter/25' trees, pull stumps, etc.... I haven't once regretted getting green. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada Pics |
2003-12-17 71473
First of all, I'm NOT trying to start a Orange/Blue/Green battle here.
I understand that there is a marginal difference in hp, but I can't believe that a hypothetical maximum hp difference of 12% would equate to a real world difference of 33%, it just doesn't make any sense.
Based on total distance travelled (plowed actually), divided by the time it takes to do it, the JD's are running at 4.5 mph, and the 'Bota's are running 6.0 mph. Again this is not just speed averaged, but two whole fleets blended together as well, just to smooth out any glitches.
However, since in the 'real world' a person with a single machine has nothing to compare with it really doesn't matter I suppose, it's just one of those odd occurances that is interesting to ponder over in front of the fireplace.
Best of luck. ....
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2003-12-17 71477
Yep, interesting to ponder. If the numbers don't make any sense ya gotta suspect the numbers. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada Pics |
2003-12-17 71479
I think it's more likely to be down to intangible things like pump or motor effeciency, relief valve settings, flow rates, fluid viscosity or some other small things which would ordinarily matter only in situations like racing where a number of small factors make a difference over the competitors.
Best of luck. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2003-12-17 71481
Ken, it was a matter of the relief valves. There was no maximum speed being attained here because at best we might have been able to hit 4-5 mph while using these tractors do to conditions present. I've often found demo's are quite interesting and the results can be astonishing. This is where the weight of the tractor could make a difference on the hydro or tires. After the deere didn't climb and just stopped everyone was wondering why, I did check the fluid and it was where it needed to be. I think many of you would be shocked on a heads up demo on like challanging turf! Ken, it really did all that it could! ....
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2003-12-18 71647
Art, I am doubtful. Very, very doubtful. My 4310 will climb a friggin tree. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee Pics |
2003-12-18 71649
I am a bit doubtful myself Art. I have never been able to or known of anyone else to overload the ehydro system unless there was a malfunctioning system or trying to operate in C range which is way too tall a gearing that would cause problems with any tractor. My 4410 pulls my 26 foot Sea Ray fully loaded with fuel and water and is in the low to mid 9,000 lb. range. The tractor does not even strain. In fact I accidently left the park brake set and moved the boat about 10 before I realized the park brake warning light was on the first time I tried moving it. Something was not right with that tractor or how it was being operated. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2003-12-18 71651
Chief, we've towed 1066 IH tractors into our shop up a small grade with Cub Cadet 149 garden tractors hydro transmissions when they were 15 years old. What's that 800 lbs to 14,000lbs! Your tractor should be able to pull your boat with ease! I bet it will stop with no question where you want to and easily turn. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma Pics |
2003-12-18 71652
I with you Ken. I do believe I'd have to chain my tires down, to get the hydro to relief out.
It's just salesman talk ;) ....
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Hydro pulling power
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2003-12-18 71653
Ken, it was close or about the angle of a white birch in a loose clump. Driving up a steep culvert bank on the side of the road? It would or will take a boom mower to mow it regularly and not tear it up. It was not comfortable to be there on either tractor for me these boys grew up on farms. I only climbed it they did take both down and there was little difference as far as the hydro holding back they seemed about the same. They both had ag tires on them and filled to the best of my knowledge. Going up they were moving the bar of sod completely to the next for the climb. On the way down they slid the same type of cleat but bared ground from time to time. Most all were fresh passes as two times over and it was stripped. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Johnln
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 4 TN |
2004-01-05 73091
Hydros actually pull stonger than gears. A clutch will slip long before hydro pumps run out of pressure. All big earthmovers, dozers, etc. use hydrostatic. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2004-01-05 73115
Ken, Billy if you can't get your hydro to go into relief or kill the engine in high range with load then you two just have some very unusual tractors!!!! ....
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2004-01-05 73117
Art, you've obviously never used LoadMatch. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2004-01-05 73130
Ken if you don't mind a little of over load conditions on your tractor I'll tell you how to do it! Just chain it to a tree or truck with the brakes locked and in four wheel drive. ....
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2004-01-05 73134
Art, that's just dumb. In any test between a rock and a hard place something will come out on top. I don't think anyone ever said that they would never relief out or that the engine would never die. I am saying that in normal stressed usage with LoadMatch it is never a problem, and that your comparision test was bogus if you disregarded features that are designed to help an operator in those situations. ....
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Hydro pulling power
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2004-01-05 73146
Ken, what's normal? ....
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Hydro pulling power
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon Pics |
2004-01-05 73152
Normal for me is turning LoadMatch on and climbing any hill I care to and worrying more about loss of traction than loss of power. I've never had it "relief-out" and stop driving and I've got some sphincter-puckering hills around here. ....
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Hydro pulling power
DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 689 Western,Pa. |
2004-01-05 73153
" A clutch will slip long before hydro pumps run out of pressure"
Johnin,
Why would the clutch slip ?
If a clutch slips before the tractor runs out of power or before losing traction there is something wrong with the clutch !! ....
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Hydro pulling power
JParker
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 152 Richmond, VA Pics |
2004-01-05 73172
On Art's the hill climb test, is it possible the hill was steep enough to cause something like thh Kubota stuck on the side of the mountain in Billy Passmore's 2003-12-17 post in this thread? Maybe the e-hydro was sucking air?
The only real way to settle this is a tug-o-war. Anybody know where they can get a fair matchup of machines, a good chain and some good pulling soil so nothing expensive gets broke? ....
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Hydro pulling power
Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma Pics |
2004-01-05 73173
"high range with load"
That's down right illegal ;) ....
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Hydro pulling power
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2004-01-05 73180
A good clutch will always go further then a hydro on a pull if it can move it. Strange as it may seem a hydro will move things without spinning a wheel that the gear can't hardly even get moving without spinning. ....
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Hydro pulling power
DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 689 Western,Pa. |
2004-01-05 73185
I agree with that Art.I run a lot of differant hydro driven equipment of one form or another at work, pavers, skid steers, rollers, compactors, etc.
The hydro's are easier to ease into the pull and get it moving without spinning the tires than and manual/clutch.
But I didn't agree with the one member claiming a clutch would slip when pulling.
....
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Hydro pulling power
GaleHawkins
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 44 KY |
2004-01-06 73198
You are slipping the transmission instead of spinning the wheel. Something has to slip at some point to start a load. Well I guess it has more to being an infinite speed transmission. The fact is you can not be running at 2000 rpm's and pop a clutch in with a manual transmission without tranfering the energy directly to tires. If the tires do not spin then something made out of steel will spin. :( ....
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Hydro pulling power
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee Pics |
2004-01-06 73223
I can pass along my experience with respect to "relieving out" the ehydro. I have personally observed 4710's pushing, and pulling loads upto about 50,000 lbs. or just a little under using a front and rear pintle hitch. The tractor did not even break a sweat and moved the load (CH-47 helicopter) with great easy and smoothness. My 4410 pulls my Sea Ray (which weighs in the upper 8K lb.if not near 9K lb. range) up a steep hill in A and B range with no strain at all. Using the C range would be a senseless act. I just tried it in B range to see if it could and then put it in and left it in A range.
Pushing/Pulling weight is just that. How many 8,000 lb. FEL bucket loads has anyone pushed up a hill. I have pulled my tractor to the limits of its traction trying to skid large trees and all 4 tires just spun in place the trans. just kept driving. In the case of the machine you guys are talking about; tractor was malfunctioning, the trans. was underfilled with trans. fluid and on too much of a hill causeing the oil suction pickup to draw air, or operator error were most likely 1 of 3 potential problems at issue.
If you don't like hydrostatic drive; don't buy it. Buy what suits ya! It makes no sense to make illogical and unsupportable claims about hydro. drive of any make or color though. Hydrostatic drive is used in some the largest and heaviest powered earth moving equipment in the world because of its superior ability to get USABLE power to the ground. ....
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